Home › Forums › General Discussion › F800 ABS – still a problem
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AnonymousInactive22/07/2008 at 10:13 amPost count: 286
Well it's been a while since I asked questions about this and I guess some 20,000kms since it was first raised with BMW. While most issues with the bike have been dealt with by BMW locally I still have a problem with my ABS.BMW Germany have just advised the ABS fault that riders worldwide are complaining about is not a problem but normal operation. If you jump on the F800 forum you'll notice that,- when braking (and it doesn't have to be hard)- on a dry road- in a straight line- and you hit a small bump the size of a catseye or dip in the road of a similar depth- the bike will do what appears to be a release of all brakes for up to two car lengths while you still have the brake lever firmly held. Then it reapplies them again. There has been a crash as a result of this and I consider itโs only a matter of time before a rider is seriously injured or killed.In Germany's latest response they have now acknowledged that this event does occur and that its a result of the bike trying to maintain directional stability and detecting the rear wheel slowing more than the front. As the rear is lifting or sliding. The problem for us riders that have experienced it is that it scares the crap out of you. The last thing you need braking for a corner or traffic is no brakes for up to two car lengths.As a result of this latest response I now intend to gather responses internationally from riders that have experienced this, collate the information and forward it to BMW Germany. I don't believe they've understood the seriousness of the problem or the way riders who are aware of it feel about it.I don't recall seeing one rider who has experienced this who thinks its anything other than dangerous and needs an urgent fix.My thoughts are BMW should advise riders of F800's worldwide so that riders are aware before it happens. Secondly they should install an ABS on/off switch so when you ride quicker you don't run the risk of killing yourself. Lastly BMW should fix this. While BMW Germany acknowledge the problem now, you can't say its just part of the ABS operating normally because we put that function in their for slippery surfaces and rear wheel lift off. It seems riders who have experienced this are saying in the event it happened the road was dry, there was no chance of the bike going over the bars and yet my bike removed braking control from me and released the brakes so that I lost all deceleration and ran the risk of a crash or worse.This event occurs for me on average every 4000kms. This bike needs to be ridden allowing an extra two car lengths to stop, softening up the suspension and preferably not using the rear brake when braking at any time other than at a stop, until such time as the fault is rectified. I say fault because it seems to me the BMW Germany engineers didn't design the ABS to release the brakes for two car lengths on a dry road, while not braking hard, when going over a bump the size of a catseye and running the risk of rider injury or death. If they did design this in then please let me know, because I can't see the benefit.If you want to read more about the problem please feel free to jump onto F800riders.org where there is a wealth of information on the F800 S,ST and GS and F650GS and it appears soon the 450.For those who need other wording ABS idiosyncrasy or ABS feature ๐ย You could say the F800 gives you an added level of excitement.
For those who need other wording ABS idiosyncrasy or ABS feature ๐ย You could say the F800 gives you an added level of excitement.
You are catching on quickly ๐ Isn't sarcasm a wonderful form of witย ๐
AnonymousGuest22/07/2008 at 8:15 pmPost count: 2134There could be a easy test by having other BMW ABS bikes ride the same section of road and see what happens with the ABS. I ride hard at times and have never noticed this problem. On the 1200 adventure I never notice the ABS coming on at all on the ride. On gravel you can have this problem of the bike not stopping and you can counter this by not pulling in the clutch. This will cause the rear wheel to lock and will slow you down over time.
AnonymousInactive22/07/2008 at 9:08 pmPost count: 286I haven't been able to recreate the problem. It seems its the bump plus a number of other odd factors.I note there are already reports of the F800GS having the same problem. I think from memory the posts referred to journos experiencing it. The F800GS also has the electrical cutout problem that has been running on the F800 for a couple of years now.In all of my riding I've never had the ABS come in except when I want to have it work by braking ridiculously hard at low speed to make it happen to demonstrate it. Even when riding hard and braking hard I've had no ABS kick in. So the only time the bike has taken control of the braking is to release them when you're wanting to stop when there is no chance of a slide or going over the front. In these instances the rear wheel was not near locking up or near lift off, its just that the bump or dip fooled the bike and voila! no brakes.((And for you Alex, I wonder if BMW will install this amazing feature on its new bikes..ย hang on word has it they've now installed it in the F800GS. I wonder if the 650GS will get it. Of course if a rider dies as a result of this feature there will be no comeback to BMW.ย ๐ :wink:))I guess what is of concern at the moment is that riders aren't being told about the problem. So when it happens for the first time its @&$^# scary. I think having the awareness would be better. Also when it does happen, you go into the dealer and the usual response seems to be "we have never heard of this problem before - there is nothing on our system about it etc etc".This problem is too serious to ignore. At present BMW have not got the message of how much of a problem this is. There is a guy on the F800 forum who took his F800ABS bike and traded it in for a non ABS bike losing $3000 (US$ I think from memory) because BMW said they couldn't disable the ABS and he had just experienced the loss of brakes. His argument was he'd rather do a pile of money than injure or kill himself.It's interesting to note that where the problem on the bike was effecting sales (the front pulley and jerkiness) BMW responded quickly, where the problem doesn't effect sales but has been responsible for at least one crash or could injure or kill a rider that BMW TAKE NO ACTION.This kind of reminds me of the tobacco companies when they had the research that smoking kills and hid it. If a rider rides off the road on an F800 because of brakes, and dies, no one will ever know.Personally I Find BMW's way of denying the problem in the face of many claims, alarming. So the next step is to collate that information and try BMW Germany direct. I know in the UK they are talking of going public because of BMW's refusal to neither fix the problem nor acknowledge it.It can't be that hard for BMW to advise riders, or provide a switch to kill the ABS. These should be a minimum. Other than that I think the F800 is potentially a great bike, handles well, goes well, economical (how do they do that), comfortable and a joy to ride on long trips for both rider and pillion. If I was replacing the F800 I think I'd want an F1000.
I guess what is of concern at the moment is that riders aren't being told about the problem.
In the F650GS Rider's Manual there are two pages of explanation of ABS and what can happen with ABS, including the release of brakes when there are surface irregularities. Or if you do stoppies or wheelies. They don't exactly say that there is mortal danger (surprise!), so you have to read between the lines to reach that conclusion.The problem has been discussed at length on bmwsporttouring.com regarding the R1150RT, but that was some years ago and the posts have probably expired.I haven't heard of an electrical cutout problem, but there has been a stalling problem on the F800GS and the F650GS. Most cases seem to have been solved with software updates.So far I've had over 3000 problem-free kms. Long may it continue.
AnonymousInactive24/07/2008 at 8:28 amPost count: 286I guess what is of concern at the moment is that riders aren't being told about the problem.
I haven't heard of an electrical cutout problem, but there has been a stalling problem on the F800GS and the F650GS. Most cases seem to have been solved with software updates.So far I've had over 3000 problem-free kms. Long may it continue.
Hi Artig, so I'm guessing you have the 650GS. That looks like a nice bike. Good luck with the bike and check out the F800riders.org forum. They have a lot of useful information on all sorts of aspects of the bikes.If you jump over to F800riders.org you'll see the cutout problem (yes actually stalling) when decelerating and pulling in the clutch is still ongoing even after the software updates. Not only that but the F800GS is now under recall in the UK for the same type of problem. This is the same problem that has been around for 2 whole years on the F800. I had the bike do the cut out just a few nights ago. I've had so many updates that I'm in danger of having the bike run out of space for updates and then of course itโs an electronic component replacement at great expense.There are also reports of the F800GS experiencing the loss of brakes with the ABS fault.Honda and Ducati apparently do not experience this loss of brakes. Forum members have been in touch with Bosch and Bosch advise that the performance parameters of the system are set by BMW and once the box leaves them they have no control over what BMW set up. Bosch (from memory) was not aware of the problem.Having said all of the above I still enjoy my F800 and would struggle to think of another bike to replace it with except for the F800GS. I think it's negligent not to tell riders that this event exists. BMW should let them know so that when they experience it for the first time they will hopefully be in a better position to respond to it.It's time to collate the info and send it to Germany direct. I know forum members are talking about going to the press. I'm not really into the publicity thing. I just want the brakes fixed.
AnonymousInactive24/07/2008 at 8:30 amPost count: 286Mind you, the KTM 690 does look good and the write up in Kiwirider is confidence inspiring.
Des, I've been on the F800riders.org forum for a while, and have contributed a few postings. But only in the F650GS/800GS forum. Also I've posted links on here and elsewhere to some ride reports that show pictures of the F650GS.The UK recall for stalling was apparently only on some very early model F800GSs. I had it happen when I test rode the F800GS, but that was on an early model that had not had a software update. And in pouring rain. I've stalled the 650 a few times, but that has been my fault each time as far as I can tell.
AnonymousInactive24/07/2008 at 9:24 amPost count: 286Well hopefully that issue is fixed for the F800GS. On the F800 the software mod seemed to improve it for a time then it was back again.Having said that. I have all the mods and still have the problem. But for me it's not an issue. It's simple really. The system crashes. You stop, re-boot it, and when it fires up again and off you go.I remember a comedian going on about Microsoft and the ridiculous nature of their product and the need to re-boot. He then went on with an amusing story imagining if Microsoft built cars. The car would die for no reason. You stop, close the windows, jump out lift the bonnet and close it and then get back in and start it. I never imagined a vehicle manufacturer would do it. I can't imagine the owner of a new BMW car being thrilled about the car suddenly shutting down, and having to re-start before the journey continues.It seems the guys that run the bike division operate under different rules and beliefs about what is acceptable.
AnonymousInactive24/07/2008 at 9:38 pmPost count: 286Artig,It's not a stall. To me you stall when you are about to move off. The event that occurs is the bike is moving, you brake to slow and pull the clutch in to change down and the bike switches off as though you've turned the bike off then on again so you have the lights up. The first time I had this happen I slowed from over 100kmph for roadworks that had a 30kmph sign, before I got anywhere near the 30k's the bike had died so I guess I would have been doing around 60kmph, it was about 5 in the morning so I saw the display light up. I knew what it was because of the F800 forum. So I just started the bike up while rolling and carried on. If you call that a stall then yes it is a stall otherwise it's cutting out. It's really funny when you think about it because it's if you were planning to come to a stop and hope off the bike it's like the bike intuitively makes a decision to stop in advance. I've never had it occur at the wrong moment. If you check out the forum some of the guys have. I guess lane splitting up to a set of lights then just before you get there having the bike die just as the lights go green you would end up with cars shooting past you. Or slowing for a corner only to find the bike is no longer running. I guess it could be a problem. Since it's never been for me I just put it in the idiosyncrasy feature file.
I realise the stall (cut out, engine stop, swtich off/on) can be dangerous, and I would be very annoyed if it happened on my bike. There was one guy in the UKGser.com forums who had it happen on a roundabout, dropped the bike, and got rid of it because of that. Fortunately he wasn't badly hurt. Perhaps it's because I usually keep the throttle partly open when changing down through the gears that it hasn't happened.My stalls haven't been when moving off, but when riding very slowly over rough or soft ground without slipping the clutch. In those cases it's difficult to tell whether it's my fault, or whether the bike is deliberately trying to throw me off. I now have a 16-tooth front sprocket (factory is 17 on F650GS, 16 on F800GS) to lower the gearing, and provide better low-speed maneuverability.
AnonymousInactive25/07/2008 at 4:38 amPost count: 286I hadn't been on the F800 forum for many months so lost touch with what was happening. Having the bike cutout in the middle of a roundabout would be a problem. Imagine if it was peak traffic on a big roundabout. That would be an interesting experience.I don't understand the technical ins and outs but it seems to me that a bike cutting out should be an easy fix.
Well my life is worth more than the $5-6000 that I will loose from trading in an otherwise good bike . I cant undersatnd those that have a fanatical fear of the ABS operation on their bikes they continue to ride them. Trade in and buy a non ABS model or a different bike.Off to look at the Sprint forums..ย ๐
AnonymousGuest26/07/2008 at 8:11 amPost count: 2134Well my life is worth more than the $5-6000 that I will loose from trading in an otherwise good bike . I cant undersatnd those that have a fanatical fear of the ABS operation on their bikes they continue to ride them. Trade in and buy a non ABS model or a different bike.Off to look at the Sprint forums..ย ๐
It's what people do, they discuss various issues. What's wrong with that? Des obviously likes his bike and wishes to have the issues sorted. He has been very patient and I am sure he will get to the bottom of it. In most forums you'll hear more about negative aspects of any make. People who have a problem tend to tell anyone who has the patience to listen, it's just human nature. With BMW's some people have unrealistic expectations because they've paid a premium for the bike, so their tolerance for faults it likely to be less than they may have had if they'd bought a cheaper bike. BMW has bee a very innovative company and they have pioneered the introduction of many features that are now becoming available on other makes as well. I still think that they are providing an excellent product, but at a higher price. As the bikes have become more complex the likelihood of nigglely failures has increased, but the substance of the bikes is still very good. See if you can walk into a Honda dealership and buy parts for a 30 year old bike and the parts guy will just take them of the shelf or get them to you within a week, regardless of which part you want.Anyway, the topic of ABS always takes on religious dimensions. You like it or you don't, or you don't care either way. Pretty simple. I am not going let anyone else make me feel miserable about my bike, just because it doesn't conform with their expectations. Variety is the spice of life, enjoy. I am sure the people on the Sprint forum are very nice. may their bikes run well for them.ย
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